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Raven
07-13-2004, 06:33 PM
The following was written by Bret Hart and posted on BretHart.com:

I’m sure that if wrestling fans will give some thought to what I’ve written here, you’ll find it to be more accurate and far more interesting than
Ric Flair’s book.

I don’t know if I’m more infuriated or disappointed by the derogatory things he wrote, not just about me, but about other hard working members of
the wrestling fraternity, like Randy Savage and Mick Foley. I wasn’t going to comment because I didn’t want to promote Flair’s book for him, but as has
become usual in wrestling the truth is getting rewritten again and I’m one of the few guys who is trying to preserve an accurate chronicle of the wrestling of our era.

It bears mentioning that if I didn’t have some measure of respect for Flair his comments wouldn’t have phased me one way or the other. Sadly, the
way he has jumped to erroneous conclusions and put them out there for the public as the truth has eroded whatever respect I had for him. Everybody has a right to their opinion, but in my view a valid opinion should be backed up by facts.

Yes, I did make some unflattering comments about Flair and Hogan back in the early 90’s. I then rethought what I’d said and in the interest of doing
business with them, for the greater good of the business, I made a sincere effort to apologize to both of them, publicly and privately. They each shook
my hand and told me not to worry about it and that it wasn’t an issue, but when I got to WCW I was never given any kind of a chance and whether either one or both of them was behind it I’ll probably never know, other than hearsay.

Now, years later, Hogan and Flair have both spoken inaccurately about me and have tried to debunk and minimize my contributions to a business that I was born into and have devoted my life to with deep passion and dedication.

Wrestling wasn’t just a job for me, it was the only way of life I knew long before either Hogan or Flair laced up a pair of boots and took their first wrestling
lesson to see what it was like.

Never, in all my life, have I ever been so infuriated by ridiculous statements made about me. Perhaps they were purposely designed to get my
response and sell more books, who knows. Who cares? Flair talks about how I could be the president of my own fan club. All I can say is, he’s one to talk!

Self promotion was an intricate key to any wrestler making it in the business. He convinced a legion of fans that he was the best in the business - and there’s nothing wrong with that. He even convinced himself. But his peers, the guys who worked with him night after night, know better. How could any fan know what kind of a worker Ric Flair really is without actually working with him?

Flair says that I believed my own press and convinced myself that I’m the best there is. When I boast about being the best there is, it is because
of three reasons. The first and most important is that I never injured any wrestler in any way despite my physical style. This is something in which I
take a lot of pride and I don’t know of anyone, who worked a schedule on par with mine for as long as I did, who can truthfully make that same claim. The second reason is that in the fourteenyears I was with the WWF, often wrestling three hundred times per year, I missed but one match - and that was due to a canceled flight. Again, I don’t think there is anyone who worked that schedule who can truthfully make that claim. Everyone on the road worked hard but I was proud to be counted among the handful of guys with an exceptionally dedicated work ethic. The third reason is that throughout my career I never once refused to put over a fellow wrestler - except at Survivor Series ‘97.

In a conversation that I had with Shawn Michaels three weeks before Montreal, when I was champion, I told him that despite our differences, I wanted him to know that he was safe working with me in the ring and that I had no problem whatsoever putting him over. Shawn’s exact words to me were, “I appreciate that, but I want you to know that I’m not willing to do the same thing for you.” This was just plain unprofessional. Putting him over would have condoned his disrespect, not just for me but for the honor of old school ways. Vince told me that I could leave any way I liked, not to mention the fact that I had contractual creative control for my last thirty days. The idea for him to beat me in Canada was solely conceived to ruin me as a commodity in my home country where WCW had big plans for me. Not to mention that when Shawn Michaels mocked fornicating with the Canadian flag in the middle of the ring it went beyond being personal to me, my fans, and my country!

I remember Ric Flair and Bobby Heenan coming up to me in the dressing room in Nashville on May 6, 1989. I was in the Hart Foundation at the
time and Flair told me he was honored to shake my hand. I had never seen him work. Being on the WWF road schedule made it nearly impossible to catch any wrestling matches on TV because we were almost always working or traveling when wrestling was on. From what little I did see of the NWA my impression was that their TV show at that time was poorly produced and made the wrestlers come off as second rate. Despite that, I’d been lead to believe, like everyone else, that Ric Flair was the best in the business. I always wondered, if he was the best why wasn’t he in the big league WWF? His popularity at that time was largely concentrated in the deep south. I appreciated his compliment and hoped I might have the chance to work with this legend some day.

About a year later Flair was head booker at WCW and he made me an offer to come work there for money good enough that I had to seriously consider it. As it turned out, Flair was unable to back up his offer and the deal fell through when he nervously reneged. I lost respect for him and his word and
smartly chose to stay put in the WWF instead.

Eventually, Flair showed up in the WWF with the WCW belt and I was somewhat surprised when he shamelessly crapped all over the history of the
territory that made him by not giving them their belt back. To this day I don’t know what would make him hurt his fellow wrestlers and their struggling company like that. I admit I don’t know all the facts on this so I won’t comment any further about it, and Ric should have done the same with me.

Flair was trumpeted into the WWF with great fan fare and at last, one night in New Haven, I was thrilled to defend the IC belt against this great legend in an unscheduled dark match that was taped for Coliseum video. I knew more about ring psychology and real wrestling at the ripe age of nine than Ric Flair knew in his entire lifetime yet out of respect I let him lead the match. Ric suggested a finish that called for me to do a flying cross body where he would subsequently catch me and stagger backwards with the two of us toppling over the top rope only to be counted out for the finish. It was a simple but risky move that I’d done countless times before with lesser wrestlers but at the end of the match when I dove into Flair he stood too far from the ropes, mistimed it , and he simply didn’t have the strength to catch me so we fell down in an embarrassing heap. Ric suddenly came up with a new make shift finish that, not surprisingly, benefited him and not me. It absolutely stunk but these things sometimes tend to happen when two wrestlers work together for the very first time.

Although the match had been taped and can still be seen today I wasn’t going to make any kind of a big deal about it, but back in
the dressing room I was annoyed to hear Flair painting out to everybody that somehow I had messed up the finish, implying that I was still a young up and comer. If you understand wrestling, you know that all I could do was dive into his arms and the rest was up to him. He proved to me, right then, that he was full of it and was no legend at all.

Ric was an old fox that took such liberties every time he thought he could get away with it. You’ll find nary a wrestler that would describe me, Savage or Foley as back stabbers or sneaky liberty takers, but with Flair you better take a number!

I remember Flair worked with Randy Savage who, like me, was lead to believe the same crap about how great Flair was when they had a Saturday
Night’s Main Event TV match in Hershey on September 1, 1992. He somehow became WWF champion and Vince McMahon carefully constructed an elaborate storyline for this very important match. I was standing right next to Vince watching the match live on a backstage monitor when Vince blew his stack as he watched Ric do absolutely nothing he told him to do. Ric has never been able to do anything but his one routine match, which consists of cartoon high spots borrowed from Jackie Fargo and midget wrestlers, along with an assortment of tired old ripped off Buddy Rogers high spots. My dad always called Flair a “routine man” - because he did the exact same routine every night, every where, and was forever stuck with it. An angry Vince met Flair as he came through the curtain and he furiously ordered both Flair and an exasperated Randy to march right back out and redo the entire match the way he’d told them to do it!

Even then, as I remember it, Flair was still unable to impress Vince. Personally, I would have been shamed with embarrassment to ever put the promotion, myself, or my opponent through such a farce! I recall telling Randy that I thought Flair was ‘thirty minutes of non stop non psychology’ and Randy shook his head and laughed along with me at how true it was.

I can tell you first hand that Ric Flair was not a great worker at all. Yes, he did hilarious interviews but, to my taste, I never thought a world champion was supposed to be hilariously amusing. Granted, Flair was entertaining to watch - and there’s nothing wrong with that.

In fact, much like Hogan, Flair’s magnetism and charisma distracted from and offset his limited ability in the ring. The single greatest contribution that Flair ever gave to pro wrestling was the wooo from his silly chops. First off, chops hurt - and in my opinion they look like crap.

For Flair to demean Randy Savage and Mick Foley is outrageous! In my opinion, as someone who has worked with all three of them (and everybody else
from that era too) Ric Flair couldn't even lace up Randy and Mick’s boots! They were both hard workers and exciting innovators who at least made every possible effort to put on some kind of a different show from night to night. Either one of them could call a great match any time they wanted. So what if Randy wanted to put in an even greater effort by designing a great match in excessive detail? That is a quality, not a flaw, and Flair is too lost in time to grasp it.

Sure Flair could call a match, the exact same one over and over, talking and telegraphing every move! I can also say that Ric was a blatant
expose every time he cut himself. “Hey look, Ric Flair’s blading! ...” Some great pro! If old time shooters like Ed Strangler Lewis or Frank Gotch were to look down from the heavens I’m sure they’d be more impressed with Randy and Mick’s realism and psychology than Flair’s phony chops and upside-down flips into the corner, where amazingly he somehow landed right on his feet! - only to jog down to the next corner - where he climbed right up and - even more amazingly - took ten or fifteen seconds to maneuver his opponent’s hands carefully onto his chest so he could take a phony beal back into the ring!

If done on rare occasions, such silly routines, because they are highly amusing and entertaining, often go undetected for how ridiculously phony they are.

But this pathetic routine was performed every time Flair went blank, and let me tell you, he went blank all the time!

As for Ric’s criticism of how my comeback was repetitive, all I can say is that I felt that, logically speaking, why wouldn’t I break into my
patented arsenal of best moves before going into my finish? I did, in fact, change it up from time to time, but I also recognized that most fans completely understood what I was doing. It made as much sense as doing the same finishing move every night, except my finish was a series of moves. The fact that Ric took exception to this is a simple example of his inability to fully understand ring psychology.

The day after I wrestled Davey at Wembley at Summerslam ‘92 in front of 86,000 fans I flew to Baltimore. They were playing a tape of the show in the hotel bar and I was watching a tape in my room when there was a knock at my door and low and behold both Randy and Flair stood there beaming. They each shook my hand and I remember Flair excitedly grinning and praising me saying, “Brother, that was the greatest match I’ve ever seen. The greatest!”

For Ric Flair to say that I wasn’t a draw is just plain ridiculous. I’m very sure that I sold enough tickets throughout my career. Who is he kidding?
Everyone knows that most of the time WCW wrestlers worked in front of empty chairs in empty arenas. All one has to do is watch Flair’s DVD to see the empty seats and the exact same match with every opponent, whatever their shape or size. After Vince made him redo his SNME match his days were numbered in the WWF because he clearly wasn’t what he was cracked up to be.

Six weeks later Flair was told to lose the belt to me in Saskatoon on October 12, 1992. As I understood it, Flair declined putting me over on TV, despite the fact that he himself had just told me that Wembley was the best match he’d ever seen ! Let alone that I was the biggest draw the WWF had in Europe and all the foreign markets, consistently main eventing in front of, not sold out buildings, but entirely sold out tours! And I had a very strong following in North America too. The WWF was reeling from sex and steroid scandals at that time and I was seen as a safe bet to carry the belt, in large part, because I worked hard and I kept my nose clean. When I won the title in Saskatoon that night I came back to the dressing room with a dislocated finger and a rolled ankle, both as a result of Ric failing to tell me what he was doing in the ring. (I generally never got hurt.)

I worked with Flair every night for a while after that and I finally went to Vince totally exasperated and told him that I thought that Ric was intentionally sabotaging my matches every night since I’d won the belt. To be honest, Ric always worked hard but nothing he did in the ring ever made sense. Just when he’d masterfully worked my leg he’d suddenly grab a headlock and call a long series of running high spots! Just when we had the crowd ready to burst he’d call some lame spot that would kill all the heat we’d built up and I forever found myself shaking my head at how we’d have to build it up all over again. Most of what Ric called made him look like a world beater and in some matches I’d blast him with fifteen or twenty terrific looking working punches only to see him never go down but then finally wobble and take one of his pathetic and comedic face bumps. Sometimes he’d do his upside-down flip into the corner two or three times in a row and in one match, only days after I won the title, he called for a small package out of a figure four and pinned himself without even giving me a comeback! When I finally went to Vince he scolded me and told me that I was his champion and from here on in to take charge of my matches - and that Flair wasn’t as good as he was cracked up to be! I was trying to respect Ric at the time but since he was heading back to WCW I had no choice but to take control. Ric apologized to me saying he was having problems at home but today he’s telling some bull**** story about Charles Barkley and the Ultimate Warrior.

A few months later, when I found out I’d be having a one hour marathon match at the Boston Garden with Ric, I came up with a brilliant storyline
that I ran by Vince, who loved it. When I ran it by Flair in the dressing room the night of the show he immediately interrupted me and began telling me what we were going to do instead. I finally had to cut him off and sadly dress him down in front of several wrestlers saying, “Ric, I’m the champion and this is how it’s going to go.” He dropped his jaw, turned red, and took his seat, saying, “You’re the champ.” He never, ever got over it either.

Scott Hall was there and often told this story to other wrestlers for years. Sadly, old Ric still managed to mess up the timing for every fall, in what I could only see as intentional. At the time I was furious to read in Dave Meltzer’s Wrestling Observer Newsletter how Ric Flair carried me for the full sixty minutes!

Ric Flair never carried me, ever! Years later I spoke with Meltzer about it and we cleared the air when after hearing my perspective on it he agreed
that he didn’t have all the facts and told me that he’d never seen the Boson match, which was reported to him by a fan who was there. If anything, Flair was not only notorious for sucking up to the office but generally took liberties with his opponents who had been convinced that he was going to make them. If you watch Flair’s matches you’ll see that he usually made himself at the expense of his opponents , something I was famous for not doing.

Enough about this so called great worker. He was a three dressed up as a nine who left his opponents second guessing their own abilities after working with him.

For shame that Ric Flair should take pot shots at Terry Funk, Mick Foley, Savage, me or anyone else. But none of this is what infuriates me the most.

For Flair to denounce me for my role in the infamous Survivor Series in Montreal, all I can say is that he wasn’t there and he ignores much of
the truth when it comes to the facts. The most complete and accurate written account of the whole Montreal debacle, for anyone who is interested, is available at brethart.com - written by Dave Meltzer. I stand proud with my head held high for the way I handled myself and the position I took for the business and my fellow wrestlers that fateful day. I find solace in remembering two truly great champions, Harley Race and Dory Funk, who did call me up to tell me they were proud of me for how I handled myself in Montreal.

That’s all the endorsement I’ll ever need! That’s all I need to say about it. Far above and beyond anything else Flair said, it is his comment about how I exploited my loving brother Owen’s death that is unforgivable.

Frankly, this is such a low class blow that it is even beneath him! If he wants to take pot shots at me as a wrestler that’s bad enough, but it is reprehensible that he would judge me for the way I handled myself in the aftermath of my brother’s death. All I can say is that I stood by Owen’s widow through a fierce and bitter time, never once failing her or their children. I did what I think Owen would have wanted me to do and I answer to Owen’s memory not to Ric Flair. For him to say that I fueled the law suit because of Montreal is ridiculous and disgusting.

I think it’s fair to say one had to walk in my shoes to fully comprehend the situation and when I put my story into words in a book about wrestling that
is worth reading only then can anyone appreciate all that I lost and all that I gave during such a difficult time. For this ******* to blindly poke me in the eye would be like me declaring that Flair showed great cowardice when he let Bobby Shane die in that tragic plane crash back in ‘75 !

Foley , Savage and Bret Hart have been doing just fine outside of the world of wrestling. What else has Ric Flair got? I’d like to punch Ric Flair right in the nose - but I’d probably have to kick somebody in the ass to do it! In the infamous words of **** Cheney, go f**k yourself Ric and be glad that someone like me doesn’t shove your head squarely up your ass someday.

Bret Hitman Hart
July 12, 2004, Calgar


All I can say is, GO ON MY SON!

Superman33
07-13-2004, 07:32 PM
Oh . . . . my . . . . gosh!

I think this might be the greatest thing I've ever read.

Lover Nuts
07-13-2004, 07:38 PM
Well I like Flair but I can't Hogan and that Hulkamania crap.

Go Bret!!!

:beer:

Kandy
07-13-2004, 08:07 PM
That was a very interesting, and very needed article. I think everything that Bret said was valid, and it is a refreshing thing to see that someone is willing to tell Ric Flair that he isnt the greatest. TWO THUMBS UP!!

Weaf
07-13-2004, 08:21 PM
I own the Flair DVD and I just don't see what the fuss is about with Flair. He was good but most of his matches were the same. Bret could wrestle a technical match, he could brawl and when needed he could hit a high impact move. Bret does have a habit of whining but in this case it was justified. Just hurry up with your book Mr Hart, you've been talking about it for years, finish it already!

CLIT
07-13-2004, 08:21 PM
Wow.

Flair and Bret are my all time favorites.

That was tough for me to read.

The Kid
07-13-2004, 09:10 PM
Well, Bret is my favorite wrestler of all time so I might be biased but, Bret rules. I agree with most of what was said, Flair, while pretty good is no Bret Hart. And what Flair said about Bret exploiting Owen's death kills any respect that I once had for Flair. That was such an ******* move, that it's prety hard to comment on. Flair accomplished what he wanted though. The fact that we're talking about this helps his book sell.

The True Game
07-13-2004, 09:57 PM
And that's why I like Bret out of the Ring.

Peoples King
07-13-2004, 11:30 PM
Wow that was a damn amazing read. When I judge Hart and Flair, I always go with Bret. Bret Hart was and is for my money the greatest the business has ever seen. I didnt know that Flair made such comments about Bret and to be honest it sickens me to hear some of the things Flair said. Refreshing to see some not suck up to Flair about his in ring ability and really when you think about it alot of what Bret said is correct. Flair did hit the same spots and only those spots in every match he ever wrestled. I have to say that I will take Bret Harts word above Ric Flairs.

Gravedigger
07-13-2004, 11:48 PM
I have to say that I will take Bret Harts word above Ric Flairs.
Until Bret quits bringing up the SS '97 incident or quits responding to it when someone else brings it up, I'll never take him seriously. He whines so damn much that it's hard to believe anything he says IMO.

Y2J World Champ
07-14-2004, 05:54 AM
Well its official, this has to be one of the greatest wrestling articles I have ever read in my entire life.

Madhatter1
07-14-2004, 02:50 PM
I just read the article and as much as I like Flair, I agree with Bret. The article is self-explanatory.

Cripplerlock
07-15-2004, 05:08 AM
Wow! I had been so busy the past few days I did not get a chance to read this article, but all I can say is wow. Flair got punked out big time. Look, I think most of of new Flair was overrated but we still respected him. Bret is absolutely right in saying Flairs matches are very routine. If you have seen one Flair match you have seen them all. He does not deviate much. I am suprised Bret did not mention how Flair gets thrown from the top rope everytime(maybe he was being merciful). I will still give Flair credit. Despite his rountine matches he has had his share of memorable matches. Back in the day he did alot for NWA and WCW even when the WWF was dominant. Even today at 50+ he can outwrestle some of these younger starts especially the bigger ones. However, truth be told Flair is damn sure no Bret Hart when it comes to in ring performance.

Gravedigger
07-15-2004, 03:28 PM
Can someone name some wrestlers who AREN'T routine?

And Flair is overrated?? I doubt someone who was overrated would have had the success in wrestling that he has had. They don't give wrestlers who aren't all that great multiple world championships.

And before anyone says those titles were in one specific region, remember that back then, wrestling wasn't as mainstream as it was during Austin, Rock, Hart, etc.'s numerous title reigns.

Back then it was hard to become a huge name all over the world in the business.

The Kid
07-15-2004, 03:52 PM
They don't give wrestlers who aren't all that great multiple world championships.

Don't they? I've seen alot of wrestlers that weren't particularlly talented get several title reigns. Kevin Nash was a multiple time champion as was Goldberg. Neither of those wrestlers will go down as being wrestlers filled with talent.

Gravedigger
07-15-2004, 04:34 PM
I was talking about Flair. Maybe I should have said over a dozen world championships.

Peoples King
07-15-2004, 05:51 PM
Dont get me wrong Flair was great but his comments about Bret Hart were uncalled. Bret had to hit back after Flair made some comments about him. IMO Bret Hart is a much better wrestler then Ric Flair, always was. It is very refreshing to see another wrestler play down Ric Flairs skills. Bret does make some good comments.

Also may I point out that until the ninties Ric Flair had won the title on a total of seven occasions. When he became booker of wCw, his title wins went up.

Gravedigger
07-15-2004, 07:26 PM
Also may I point out that until the ninties Ric Flair had won the title on a total of seven occasions. When he became booker of wCw, his title wins went up.
I'm guessing you're implying that he made it to where he won the championship a few more times once he became a booker. If you read his book, you'll find that not to be true. I haven't read the book myself, but RAW magazine took a chapter out of his book explaining what went on while he was a booker (mainly to bash Foley's comments on his WCW booking days).

Flair only bashed Foley because Foley bashed Flair in his first book, basically blaming Flair for not allowing Foley to become any bigger than he was in WCW. Flair actually had nothing to do with Foley not becoming big. So Flair then proceeded to bash Foley by saying he was nothing more than a glorified stuntman.

So Bret needs to do his freakin homework before fussing at Flair for bashing Foley. Foley did the same thing and what he said was a lie. Flair's comments in his book were simply his opinion on Foley and nothing more.

Peoples King
07-15-2004, 11:11 PM
GD how does that prove anything? I was talking about World title reigns not Mick Foley. Foley said that Flair was a poor booker, he never mentioned Flair in the ring.

It is kind of strange how a man that in his prime won seven titles but when he hit over 40 he more then doubled his title wins. Hmmmmm there's something a miss here Dandy.

Gravedigger
07-16-2004, 12:38 AM
GD how does that prove anything? I was talking about World title reigns not Mick Foley. Foley said that Flair was a poor booker, he never mentioned Flair in the ring.

It is kind of strange how a man that in his prime won seven titles but when he hit over 40 he more then doubled his title wins. Hmmmmm there's something a miss here Dandy.

I know that. The point was that Hart's comments about Flair and his booking were false just like Foley's were. I was showing you an example by mentioning Flair's chapter in his book that was commenting on his days as a booker and when he took shots at Foley for, like Hart is doing now, bashing Flair for being a booker.

What Foley and Hart both said plus world title reigns while being a booker are all connected.

This is basically the same thing as when people accuse HHH of being biased because he's sitting in on the production meetings and boning the boss' daughter. It's the same thing when people say Flair gets where he is because of being a booker and gets all the wins and titles he gets, the same happens with HHH. I'm not saying HHH didn't get where he is and get what he gets because of it. Neither am I saying the same about Flair.

Foley and Hart both bashing Flair's period of being a booker is the same as the 'net fans bashing HHH for the same thing.

Foley was just mad that he got nowhere in WCW so he took a shot at Flair. Then again, Flair might not be telling the truth and Foley could be right.

But like I said, I mentioned Foley because he made basically the same comments that Hart made. Hart was pissed because Flair wasn't able to get him into WCW like he had said he could.

Both men were really bitter towards Flair. Flair had no reason to be bitter towards either Hart or Foley because Flair is one of the top most recognizable wrestlers.

The Kid
07-16-2004, 01:58 AM
I think that Bret has a reason to be mad at Flair. Flair bashed Hart in his book for no reason and went as far as to say Bret used Owen's death to benefit himself which is a truely pathetic thing to say. I think Bret's comments are understandable and when both men are long gone one thing will remain. Bret was a better wrestler in the ring and out of the ring. He brought grace and integrity to the sport, Flair was just a second rate promotion's champion a bunch of times.

Gravedigger
07-16-2004, 02:04 AM
I think that Bret has a reason to be mad at Flair. Flair bashed Hart in his book for no reason and went as far as to say Bret used Owen's death to benefit himself which is a truely pathetic thing to say. I think Bret's comments are understandable and when both men are long gone one thing will remain. Bret was a better wrestler in the ring and out of the ring. He brought grace and integrity to the sport, Flair was just a second rate promotion's champion a bunch of times.
You have GOT to be kidding me. People who have been watching wrestling for more than a decade, when asked who were the greatest wrestlers they can remember, will be naming more NWA/WCW wrestlers than WWF/WWE wrestlers.

Look who was wrestling for WCW and NWA when Flair was champion and/or going for the title. Then look who was in WWF when Bret was going for their title. I think the number of greats Flair was surrounded by/wrestling with outnumbers the amount around Bret Hart.

The Kid
07-16-2004, 02:19 AM
I see what you're saying but would those greats have been greats if they wrestled in the WWE? For example, Tommy Dreamer was a huge star in ECW but if he wrestled his whole career in WWE/WWF, then he wouldn't have been considered a great superstar and would probably be unknown. Whether you like it or not, NWA/WCW was never as big a company as the WWF was. I agree Flair is a legend but he's no Bret.

Superman33
07-16-2004, 04:37 AM
Bret was a better wrestler in the ring and out of the ring. He brought grace and integrity to the sport, Flair was just a second rate promotion's champion a bunch of times.
Bret Hart > Ric Flair

Gravedigger
07-16-2004, 03:45 PM
I see what you're saying but would those greats have been greats if they wrestled in the WWE? For example, Tommy Dreamer was a huge star in ECW but if he wrestled his whole career in WWE/WWF, then he wouldn't have been considered a great superstar and would probably be unknown. Whether you like it or not, NWA/WCW was never as big a company as the WWF was. I agree Flair is a legend but he's no Bret.
Majority of the technical wrestlers these days got their wrestling styles from WCW/NWA wrestlers.

As for whether or not those wrestlers would have been big had they been in WWF, I gotta ask you about a lot of the wrestlers who were in WWF first and were well-known for that.

I doubt Hogan would have been as big had he been in WCW first. I doubt HBK would have been as big. Look at The Undertaker when he was in WCW. HHH wouldn't have been as big a name. Rock MIGHT HAVE. Look at Steve Austin. He was a pretty decent-sized name in WCW.

WCW and WWF were two different federations entirely. WCW focused on the wrestling, WWF focused on the entertainment part. Almost all of the big name wrestlers in WWF weren't big because of their wrestling talent. I know that's not the argument, but what I'm trying to point out to you that saying Guy A wouldn't have been big in WWF is stupid.

How long have you been watching wrestling?

The Kid
07-16-2004, 07:53 PM
I've been watching wrestling ever since I was about 3 so that's 12 or 13 years. I'll admit I watched WWF for the majority of my young life but I watched WCW quite a bit as well. You can give examples of WCW wrestlers that did better in the WWF but I could go the other way, saying Scott Hall, Scott Steiner and Jeff Jarrett achieved much more sucsess while in WCW. ANother thing is, you can't predict who will be big and who won't be. Pushes are a matter of having good timing. For example, in a few years John Cena will be a HUGE star simply because of the WWE's need to create new stars currently.

As for WCW being drastically different than WWF, that's true but only to an extent. I really wouldn't say WCW only focussed on actual wrestling when some of their biggest stars were Goldberg, Hulk Hogan and Kevin Nash. WCW did focus on wrestling but they were hardly an ROH-type company that exclussively focussed on wrestling. WWF does the same thing. So maybe they weren't all that different.

Gravedigger
07-16-2004, 09:12 PM
As for WCW being drastically different than WWF, that's true but only to an extent. I really wouldn't say WCW only focussed on actual wrestling when some of their biggest stars were Goldberg, Hulk Hogan and Kevin Nash. WCW did focus on wrestling but they were hardly an ROH-type company that exclussively focussed on wrestling. WWF does the same thing. So maybe they weren't all that different.
Those were WCW's biggest stars when WCW started competing with WWF. WWF was winning in the ratings and WCW had to get back ahead and they realized that fans enjoyed the sports entertainment part more.

Over 90% of WCW's wrestlers were WRESTLERS and not straight-up entertainers like Nash, Hogan, and Goldberg.

Almost all of the focus before the Monday Night Wars for WWF was on entertainment, it just brought it to a whole new level during the Wars. For WCW it was wrestling being the main focus. Of course neither federation focused soley on their type of "entertainment".

Peoples King
07-17-2004, 02:03 PM
Seems this has turned into an NWA/WWF debate all of a sudden. Completely different topic guys, so maybe you should take it to a different thread. But me being the loveable Irish bastard that I am, I am going to throw my hat in the ring.

Lets face it, in the 80's wrestlers bounced from promotion to promotion. Very few stayed in the one territory very long. Harley Race, Ricky Steamboat, Ric Flair were some of the great names in the NWA AND in the WWF. All three men had very very successful careers in both companies so IMO we really cant cut the two apart.

Now for the great WWE stars that GD pointed out worked for wCw. You have to say GD that an awful lot of that went down to mishandling of talent. Austin was screwed around the entire time that he was with wCw. He would be going nicely and then theyed drop him off the radar for a while. Triple H was young when he went to wCw. I think we can all agree that when it comes in-ring work, Triple H is one of the greatest of all time(Flair agree's with that statement). Hogan would have been as big because Hulk was a celebrity. He made a few movies and Vince thought, 'Hey there is money in this guy.' Ted Turner would have thought the same but Vinnie Mac got to him first.

NWA and wCw are actually not originally the same company. Ted Turner had wCw before he bought out NWA and so these two are infact completely different entities entirely.

The WWF/NWA/wCw made wrestling what it is today, I think we can all agree on that. Without these three entities wrestling would still be caught in a time warp and some of the great wrestlers we saw today wouldnt have been given the chance in the spotlight.

Cripplerlock
07-17-2004, 05:05 PM
Can someone name some wrestlers who AREN'T routine?

See, I have to put some blame on the WWE for this question because it has this bad habit of putting wrestlers in a routine style. The point you missed here is Flair really does not mix it up in his matches. Flair has had very little deviations in his matches since I first saw him wrestle in the 80s. He does the exact same spots every time at least for the last 2 decades. There are few wrestlers who are as rountine as Flair. I would say Hogan is definitely worse. At least Flair is not without talent. We all know that every wrestler has signature moves and certain spots he does in the match but that is not what Bret meant. What Bret was trying to emphasize is Flair was not as strong in the ring psychology department as people may have thought. Bret might have been a little too harsh because Flair can pace a long match but he is not really that innovative. Again, the current wrestlers now wrestling in the WWE style may not be the best example. However, go watch some Benoit's, Guererro's, Jericho's, HBK's, etc. earlier matches in their career and you will see although some spots were the same they mixed it up depending on the opponent and the situation. If that does not do it then find something with some old WCW crusierweight matches.

Cripplerlock
07-17-2004, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Kid
As for WCW being drastically different than WWF, that's true but only to an extent. I really wouldn't say WCW only focussed on actual wrestling when some of their biggest stars were Goldberg, Hulk Hogan and Kevin Nash. WCW did focus on wrestling but they were hardly an ROH-type company that exclussively focussed on wrestling. WWF does the same thing. So maybe they weren't all that different.
Those were WCW's biggest stars when WCW started competing with WWF. WWF was winning in the ratings and WCW had to get back ahead and they realized that fans enjoyed the sports entertainment part more.

Over 90% of WCW's wrestlers were WRESTLERS and not straight-up entertainers like Nash, Hogan, and Goldberg.

Almost all of the focus before the Monday Night Wars for WWF was on entertainment, it just brought it to a whole new level during the Wars. For WCW it was wrestling being the main focus. Of course neither federation focused soley on their type of "entertainment".".


I am reading the debate and I agree with PK in that you guys got off topic. This is really not about what Federation you came from or who was the most popular 2 decades ago. It is no secret that Bret is a very proud wrestler and sometimes arrogant. However you have to take a step back and look at where bret is coming from. Bret gret up in the business from a very young age and having his father Stu as couch and wrestling in the Dungeon was not a picnic. Through that torture he learned to perfect is style. If you spend your whole life dedicated to something, you are going to have an ego when you reach the top. There is nothing wrong with that. No one is saying Flair did not grow up in the business, although I am not sure he was as young as Bret was when he started. I am guess that Bret probably had a harder time dealing with the non wrestling side of the business and he does not really favor those wrestler who were stronger with their charisma and the sports entertainment than their wrestling ability. Bret is arguing from a different viewpoint than we as fans are use to seeing. In a non wrestling example someone like Michael Jordan is going to look at the sport of basketball a little different than the average fan. Bret was not denying the fact that Flair was popular and Flair was very instrumental with NWA and WCW as far as their success. However, one the bell rings, the hype is gone, the promos and interviews have ended, you will notice that Bret and Flairs styles in the ring are completely different. Bret has a definite edge on the wrestling part.